Sara Wimmercranz: Building Europe the Nordic Way

In this episode of The Northbound Show, host Ken Villum Klausen sits down with Sara Wimmercranz — General Partner at BackingMinds, Dragon in Dragons' Den, and co-founder of the XO Foundation — who built one of the region's biggest e-commerce players before crossing to the other side of the table as an investor.

Sara has a mission: build Europe the Nordic way, not the American way. She's tired of the Nordics looking up to Silicon Valley and wants the region funding its own founders, keeping its own talent, and trusting a model built on low ego and flat hierarchy. Even Jante, she argues, might be a hidden asset — if no one thinks they're bigger than anyone else, the best ideas win.

That thinking became BackingMinds, the fund she started with her partner Susanne after the two met at a poker table — a plan Sara hatched to break into the closed networks behind the capital that built the Swedish unicorns. Their thesis: the best returns are hiding in the ideas and founders others overlook or haven’t found yet.

Ken and Sara also get into why capital is drying up for European funds, why Danish founders tend to sell and leave while Swedish ones reinvest, and what it'll actually take to turn the Nordics into one ecosystem that leads Europe instead of following it.

Hosted by Ken Villum Klausen, The Northbound Show brings together Nordic founders and leaders for long-form conversations about how small nations consistently build companies with outsized global impact. Because the Nordics' greatest export isn't a product. It's a mindset.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today we're welcoming a person who built one of the largest and most successful e-commerce players in our region and then turned directly into investing with a really awesome fund who's investing in the companies that other funds are in many cases overlooking. Such a great human being, great ambassador, not just for the Nordics, but also for Europe. And I'm stoked to having her here in the northbound hall. Welcome to Sarah. Welcome to the Northbound podcast.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

And exciting that you're in Copenhagen. What's happening in Copenhagen, by the way?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

So we have a few Danish investments, and I'm on the board of one of them. So we're having a board meeting and I'm having an interview with a potential employee of ours. And uh I'm meeting you.

SPEAKER_02 0:53

Yeah. Yeah, it's awesome. What and what what what type of investments have you done here in Copenhagen? Like specific verticals or industries that you go for?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Uh not a specific vertical, but the one this is the company I'm on the board of uh is uh hybrid energy, so it's energy optimization. Okay, which is a very good way of just you know making more usage of the energy we already have from the first minute. That's what we like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

It's insane in Denmark right now because uh you can't really build a data center or anything in Denmark anymore because we don't have a grid that supports it. So the entire the entire Danish grid is uh kind of coming to an end and no innovation is uh is is is being made because the grid can't uh can't deliver on it.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

And this is a more uh interesting topic that I think uh people think of because it's become becoming an issue in in the US. And we think that we have just so much of electricity and it's cheap and everything. But you know, it's uh it's uh the public opinion in the US is totally shifting of when it comes to new establishments. But we're still so celebrating, of course, when when someone is coming to a little town up north in Sweden saying we are going to establish a huge data center that takes more than all the households here, and everyone is like, hoo-hoo, they choose us. Uh, I just hope it will last. Um, but I it won't probably last.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

It is one of the I think more crazy industries right now. I so I I also sit in the board of an energy company, actually. Uh but they move energy around from country to country. But the thing is across housing and computing for data centers and uh transportation, the world uses more energy than we produce.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

So so we we don't have the surplus for just using the energy that we are we're spending across households. So I think that is an industry that's super exciting.

SPEAKER_01 2:35

And how is the dependency going for us with fossil fuels?

unknown 2:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

I mean, we have this backlash of the climate issue. People are like, oh, that problem must be solved because we don't talk about it anymore. But then again, you see what happens if we how's the development of renewables in Sweden? Are you doing a lot of windmills and I mean, politically it's been a shift that has been bad for the investments in renewable energy. I mean, they're they're doing a lot of things to make it more stable, but uh it's been a little bit of a political shift um the four last years of so there's not so many new investments going on within that field.

SPEAKER_02 3:10

The world is on fire right now.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

The world is on fire, but I think that we should like uh I mean it's on fire, and that's that's why it's a huge opportunity for Europe. Yeah, I think it's it's never been more clear for us uh that we can't be dependent on things that that are crucial for our survival, for building businesses. And and I mean I mean, we've never been more united. We we we have the same information, we know this, we want to work together. The European Union is speeding up, and I just think that uh that's why I'm also happy about this podcast, because I think that the Nord I want to build Europe the Nordic way. I want us to build it the Nordic way and not the American way, which we've seen for so long when it's about like how to be as a founder, how to be as a VC. I'm a little sick and tired of us looking up to the US, and I want us to do it the Nordic way.

SPEAKER_02 3:59

Yeah, I think in many ways it should be the other way around where others are looking up to us, right? Because the Nordic way is a really great model.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah, and what is the Nordic Wave for you? Like what if you would like describe it?

SPEAKER_02 4:10

Yeah, I think I think it has many aspects. I think I think the cultural aspect of it, uh the even the Nordic population and the mindset of the Nordic people are somewhat in our favor, not in every aspect, I would say. We still have um there's a bit of Yander still that we're struggling with, uh a bit about ambition still for some. I think Sweden is maybe a bit ahead of its curve in contrast to Denmark, Norway, and Finland, right?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

And but what if Yante is our biggest asset? What if it's like also a part of the explanation of us building so big? Because if we as founders don't see ourselves as bigger than everyone else, we will have a much more like wider culture and not so much hierarchy. It will make everyone be able to come up with innovation, ideas, and also like maybe complaints that are super useful. So for me, it's like I also hear us all the time saying that this is so bad about the Nordics, Yanti's bad, and everything. I think it's also an explanation of us building big and doing it like I come from the village of IKEA too. And Ingva Camper was one of the first, and he's like, he was he was like he was wearing wooden clothes, like his secondhand clothes, and the snooze was like running out from his mouth. He looked like any grandpa. And like, but at the same time, you know, you knew he had been building something big, but you just like he was like everyone else. And what does that mean for all the thousands and thousands of employees is like if he, who is like everyone else, can build this big, I can do it too. So I want to, I mean, I see also the backsides of Jant and things like that, but I think that the lack of hierarchy, seeing yourself as not bigger than everyone else, is also an openness for other people's point of views and ideas, which makes the culture stronger.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

I agree to that 100%. And I I'm I don't know if it compares with IKEA, but in some ways it does. I think one of my first jobs was working for a Danish fashion company, bestseller.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:08

And uh and bestseller's principles is exactly the same. It is no hierarchy, there's no difference. You you can sit and have lunch with the CEO. Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's an awesome company culture. So I so those were kind of my formative years growing up uh at my first jobs. And I took that on in Lunar also and in other businesses where that flat hierarchy and everyone is like a successful strategy also. So I think it is it is part of the of the Nordic trades. But having said that, I also feel like the world has changed with Capital Right. And you're a great example of that with the success you've had with your fund. But but if you roll that back 10 years ago and you saw a Nordic founder versus an American founder, yeah, in in in in in many ways, the American founder kind of oversold we have awesome technology, we should do this and that, and so on. And then when you looked under the hood, nah, not really. And then you made a Nordic founder and they were more humble, like, yeah, it's the early days and we don't really know if it works. And then you look under the hood and it's awesome technology. So I think in some years we were maybe just a bit too humble on our on being confident. And I think there's there's a there's a few examples in Sweden right now with with that confidence coming back, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yeah, yeah. And also, but it's just when when you put it like that, it's like if our one of our best traits is to be humble, then we have a problem because that it's inherited in that word, not bragging, not lifting, which is of course, as long as you're also dependent on the American VC money, you have to have this kind of bold story too. And of course, it's something we we we need to figure out, right? But uh yeah, we have some, but but all of them, like the new ones, I mean, because I was also there and I know the founders of the first of the last Unicorn way, like I played poker with them, like all of them, the Klarna founders, the Spotify founders. Yeah, uh so one part of my story is that when we were raising capital, it's like still the Nordic way, I think, is very much of like everyone should have access to all opportunity, and that's a good thing. But that that has not gone to capital. If you don't know the right persons, you're you're screwed. And which means that if you come from a little town up north and you have you're a woman, you're just like too far away from the networks. So I figured out like how like I have to get to know the rich people. So I heard about this secret uh CEO and founder network that I nestled myself into. Uh, and I of course I had to, like, I couldn't suck at poker. So I read like three Texas Holden books over the weekend, you know. And I I came there and it was, of course, early days for all of these founders of Spotify and Clara and um and the like. And uh, and uh there was this one woman who had the same plan because she figured out like if I'm I have to I want to build big and I need a lot of capital, how can I get to know the captain guys? Right. So, and that was Suzanne, who I'm I'm now running back in minds with. So we we we You met each other at poker at the final table of playing poker. That's true, that's a true story. And we had like different personalities because I was like the social one trying to figure out what people were thinking, and he she was practically rain man, like she was like counting on like sitting with sunglasses, not giving any expression at all. Yeah, that not that bad, like um yeah, but she was like counting on on possibility, like she's super smart. Okay, so we started to talk about uh you know building companies, and we got for friends, and we actually also found our first investors at the poker table, yeah. Uh and um and uh we also talked about, of course, the capital industry and the flaws, yeah, the advantages and the disadvantages, and we like there's so many great ideas, but it's just like a wall between ideas and the capital. Yeah, how can we build uh a like a capital market where more founders and ideas get you know access to capital?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

And was that that was the formative idea for what you wanted?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Yeah, exactly. And but and I think that what really is very like I think that maybe a little we we don't hide for problems, but we wake up with the opportunity. So, which means that for us it's like I we saw it as a problem, but more like that's such a great business opportunity. Like we were so excited because if we could find a way to reach the other ones, we will probably because they will also very likely be missed mispriced, right? We could get in at lower valuations, build the companies, get give them access to the network, already take in other VCs at a higher valuation. So we for us it was a clear business opportunity too, uh, even if we had a passion, of course, for for the innovation that could come out.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

How do how did you brand that alternative um structure of doing like access to capital? Did you did you go out and do something completely different? Because I I would assume that you had to brand yourself differently than traditional VC.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Yeah, at first we were like, we didn't even want to call ourselves with VC, but then I think that we came up with a bold thought of like maybe this should be the definition of VC. So we started to use that more like in every sentence we said, like this is the new VC, like because I think that we are making great returns of the of the Swedish VC ecosystem. I mean, they're doing a great job, but it's just it could be even more return and even more growth for Sweden. So I think it's a um I think for us to brand this. I think what we figured out very early on was that the future entrepreneurs, we figured out that we we will we wanna, you know, we have to build another platform for reach, for reaching other kind of founders, and and doing that by you know being having another social media strategy, having another strategy on how to talk in press, being open, transparent, and and also talk about other things, uh, things than rather financial or technical. Like there's so many, like me, for instance, I didn't know even know what the finance industry was when I grew up. I was just like a hustler. You know, I just I didn't even know I was an entrepreneur until someone told me when I was 22 that I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. And if we want to reach them, we have we also have to be like like people are. We can't just be like, you know, like uh Stu Replan, as we say, like this kind of stock on mentality, talking about about like like reading from an Excel sheet. Yeah. So we just decided we want to be something different. We want to, you know, be more approachable. We want to be, you know, they just lower the end, like the entry level for the.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

But what's the type of founders that are appealed to that then?

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Is it a specific set of founders or is it just broad appeal when you do no I think that like what what what is like when we talk to founders, they already know about us and what we stand for, which gives us a huge DD flow. And it also makes us preferred once their competition because they already know us and and how founder-friendly we are, how we we talk also about other values, then just like we wanna I think that if you really, really want to be build big, you should also figure out how you how you can for real make yourself last. Like you would never hear my meets like or someone else at back in mind saying things like other like other VC saying, like we show up at eight o'clock in the evening and make sure to ever to see everyone in the office still because we want them to work 24-7. And we're like, wow, that can't be a very effective organization if everyone has to sit there the whole time.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

You're not a 996 supporter, then.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Uh are you?

SPEAKER_02 13:32

I think it's difficult. Um, yeah, but but um you and I spoke about it also. We both have a bunch of kids. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

So it's right. Two boys, two girls. Yeah, it's crazy. The same ages, yeah, same uh spouse.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Same spouse.

SPEAKER_01 13:47

We have it all figured out.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

It's uh but but look, I I don't know how you feel, but sometimes when I look back, it I it's it's difficult to fathom how we made it through all of building businesses and and having children. Yeah. How did you do it?

SPEAKER_01 14:02

I think that how I did it was that I have a husband who love uh loves being a parent as much as I do, which is not something you can take for granted. He's also been building businesses, so we have the same ambition. And for us, it's like um you you you you're not the whole universe, which is a super good thing. And then you can use it to like have a you know lower down your ambitions, or you can use it to speed up the impact you have. So both of us were like, we we really want to make this world bigger, even more, right? And then you have to work really hard. So for us, it's like it became it became much more important for me to do something that would last and for the next generation, and maybe not only selling shoes, which which is not bad. Like all entrepreneurship is beautiful, but it's just like so so. For that, I'm like, I'm waking for me. It's not it's not, it doesn't feel like a like a job, uh, but at the same time, some of my best ideas and the best things that uh has happened is is when it was less stressful. So it's like it's a little bit glorifying, like in a in a Chinese way of like if you just work 996, you'll be so effective. But I also think that it's you have to talk for me. It's like when I sometimes, you know, we we spend sometimes in panels with other founders, and you hear them like maybe it's a young audience, and they're like, you have to be ready to work all weekends, Christmas, vacation, never seeing family, never seeing friends. I'm like, they don't want competition, they don't want anyone to start a business because this is young people, maybe they just fell in love. Like it is true because you are working hard, but I just want us to see, but uh we don't want this uh what a stempel clock at back. We want output to count, we want result to count, and with AI we can do it even more. Productivity is something completely different with AI. And if we don't want to give time back to our employers, employees, but rather like you should work 996, and then we'll we'll make sure AI replaces you. That's the sentiment. And I just wanna, yeah, we want to build big, we want to build an order, we have to work hard, but for once it's a difference of being the founder and owner, and for someone being an employee, you have to understand the difference. And that may be the difference in passion, right? And also, it's a marathon, it's not a sprint. I mean, sometimes I work 24-7 for several days in a row, like not sleeping, and it's just so much fun and energy. And then, of course, I also have to rest.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Uh, but it's I don't think we're doing the society a favor if we just like tell young people like, forget about Christmas, you will never see your grandma again.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Never see your friends. But I think it's there's also a bunch of different role models right now because I think to your point, it's you see it a lot in younger founders.

unknown 16:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

But they are more under the 996, let's just crush it, sleep at the office.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:56

Uh, and then you have other experienced founders who's maybe striking a better balance.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Um, like to be honest, I was awful at striking that balance myself in the first formative years.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

You know, to be honest, I didn't know why I would go home. Like when I was younger, I was like, why would I go home? Yeah, I can't I might as well just, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:14

So so I've, you know, we all have different but there's also, you know, there's also an ambition in building a healthy uh work environment where you can be appealing as a workplace to great colleagues and you know create an awesome company culture. I think that's part of the Nordic model, also, that it's a bit bit more balanced than if you were working.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

And also, I mean, like attracting someone like you. What would make you that's something I think that I said the other week on LinkedIn like there's a huge opportunity for employer branding now because if everyone else is saying 996, it's very easy to say, but hey, we are looking for people and we're only 12 to 2, three days a week. Just like you know, also having the guts to be differently, and and um, and also I think that we're still dependent on on American VC, and and it's a lot of of that coming out also out from from uh leaders over there, and then and maybe we should talk about that a little bit because I don't know what what what do you feel lately? Like when we were starting our first companies was just like so much to look up to in the US. Like, do you remember that? Like the Googles, like, don't be evil. It was the sentiment of that time, and now all of a sudden you can hear like people like Peter Thiel, like can't even answering straight on, he wants humanity to endure, like even if that's cut out, it's just like um something is happening with empathy, something is happening with the belief uh in democracies, things like that. That maybe it's also triggered for us to like we we need you new more role models, we need need more kents, yeah, we need more like um and I think that Anton and a lot of the other young ones in in Sweden have a complete different leadership, and that's a really good thing. We should not make them you know have to move to the US with with the companies, with their employees and everything. We should give them the chance here.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, I think. What's your view on this? Yeah, I I I agree, but I think I think some of the Swedish AI founders, when you look at their LinkedIn content, seems like they are working on the chat, the Chat GPT written content, you mean. Yeah, but but but I I think but I think they are probably more doing the 996 actually that they that they would.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so so and and and and don't get me wrong, I'm not talking about the 996 now. I'm talking about some other leadership traits. I I think that you I mean you have to be ready to work hard. That's not what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah, and I I think to your point to your point about being a founder, also um like when we launched the first business, probably the same time as you you did, right? The inspiration was the US. You couldn't think of like Europe probably only had a handful of really cool tech companies. Now there's so much inspiration in Europe. Awesome inspiration in Sweden amongst the new wave of companies, but also this like one of the first waves with Spotify and Klan and King and everyone, right? So so I think I think the inspiration is changing massively. Where you can see, look, you can create a billion euro business in Stockholm or in Copenhagen or in wherever you want to do it because the world's just changed so much.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Yeah. And we have to make sure they get capital enough because I mean there are great initiatives, but we just need so much more capital here. We should use our pension funds more wisely. I mean, at the same time, everyone, every political politician in Sweden is saying, like we what we have to, you know, become more depend independent, we are going to build European companies. It's it's less capital than ever for VCs, which is will be such a huge problem in five years for innovations, for people companies starting. And why is that?

SPEAKER_02 20:49

Where's the hold up in capital?

SPEAKER_01 20:51

No, so what's happened was that we had this like glory days of 21, right? Like money was practically I lived through them.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Yeah, yeah. We were there.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

I was like super pregnant, then I can just like race in three weeks.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Money is free. Send us your slides, and here's the term she used.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

I recall I recall we had some investors who said if you are hiring a one, it's better to hire three, so you're ready for the growth, also.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Oh, yeah, yeah, you see, yeah. I've heard that too. I've heard that too. Like you have to. No, but uh uh no. So so what happened is of course the uh economies slowed down and they went there were no distributions. So a lot of um LPs now they have lacked in distributions for many years. So they have to wait until they let in new funds and fill up new funds and things. And that we see that statistically. So this year, I think that so far 32 European funds have closed in 2026. In 2022, I think it was six hundred and seventy nine. So it's like a slaughter. It's like and that's not so at the same time, we want we we will build Europe. We're so united, we're doing this, but the lack of of capital is is So big, and and I mean that said we have to do something about it.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

But it feels like the capital is there, it's just not being deployed, right? Because we have pension funds, there's an oil fund in Norway, but those guys are mainly deploying in American companies, and we have to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

I met uh like uh the responsible for a bank's investments, and uh and this person was pretty much like, Why would I invest in they're still like very American focused, and I want them as a customer also in that bank. I was like, I want you to become better. I want to hear that you are like you know building Europe right now. So I think that uh there's a and and I I totally agree with the capitalist there, we have so much money. I mean, the new billionaires just coming out of Sweden, like 500, 600, it's just crazy uh much money, and and they're there definitely a lot of them are building the second generation now. I really like what I'm seeing, and that was actually the same for me. Like when I started a company, let's let's call this the Nordic way. I think it is because the way the founders help each other is just remarkable. So I started found uh Footway and and um I I had um gotten to know um one of the founders of Spotify, Martin, and he was so supportive, he even sent mystery shoppers to try our store and send feedback.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Yeah, that's an awesome help.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

That's so cool, and I see the examples of that all the time. And and now, of course, the first generation of unicorn, well, maybe not the first, but you know, like the last generation. They're of course I want them to pour the money in the next generation, I want them to build their legacy. Uh I don't want I want them to like just like just don't sit on the money. Now is the chance.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

But it feels like Sweden has an edge on Denmark in that comparison because I know a bunch of you know really great Danish founders also who's super supportive. I think every founder is supportive by nature. Yeah for even if you're in competitive angles or industries, you're still supportive because you want to grow your community and and and and your your peer group, right? But I can probably only count like a couple of handfuls of Danish pioneers who's re-engaging and re-investing.

SPEAKER_01 24:10

Why is that?

SPEAKER_02 24:11

I I don't know. There's and and and and I think when looking back, it feels like there's a bunch of Danish entrepreneurs who sold their business and then just left it at that.

unknown 24:22

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 24:22

I sold it, I'm done, there's the money, now I can relax uh and you know have a great life.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

How can we make them become more like you? Like they're still wanting to build, build the next generation, build something better for the future. Like, how do we get that spot?

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Yeah, I I think the new newer generation is more into that also. But but but but look again, if you compare Denmark with Sweden, um Denmark has never really had a tradition for building businesses of the size and magnitude that you guys did in Sweden. So in Denmark, it used to be like a Danish path was when you got to a point in time in your business, you either sold it at the first buyer, you sold your business and took home your money, or you moved out of Denmark, so into the UK, into the US, and suddenly you were an American business or a British business. So we didn't really have the same tradition of staying home as Spotify did and Klarner did and a few other students.

SPEAKER_01 25:18

And that's lack of amount of eases. You didn't have that many to compete.

SPEAKER_02 25:22

No, so so again, like you had a few business angels or local investors, and suddenly there's someone waving a couple of hundred million euros in front of you, and that's go for it, right? Yeah, for sure. You'll never get that chance again. Where you see now that founders also in Denmark here are just continuing to be more ambitious, to do more. And and at the same time as they build business, they also have somewhat of an of an appetite for then engaging in others. So I see a lot of founders, both in Denmark and Sweden right now, who's they are still operators, they are still raising money, building businesses, but at the same time, in that journey, deploying in other businesses and helping out in other businesses. And not just waiting. So every time I read an article in Break it or Break It or Dark Ends Industry in Sweden, there's a new AI company, and then I see that half of the investors in that new AI company is from the other AI companies. So so I think something is happening right now that's cool to follow.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Yeah, and and the thing is like we talked about that before here. Like we both of us we really believe in the Nordics. We we would love for us to have the same language. We've both tried. You've gone to Dogens Industry speaking Danish. I went to Bersen speaking Swedish, and I didn't even understand what I was saying myself. So we try that. Uh, and then and then again, I think it's also like it's so it's a little cute actually because we also love to emphasize the differences between us. But if you look at all research of social psychology and everything, we are pretty much the same, same, same. Yeah, we have some small differences, and I mean we're so close we even make jokes about each other. Like every Swede knows that when like this Danish joke of like, how do you keep uh Copenhagen clean? Help a Swede to the shore. You know, it's just like I think that we should we should not forget about this brother and sisterhood of our Nordic countries, because I think that's a strength, and that's why I also want to challenge. Like, I think that it is within every Dane to build as big, and I think that we should not be building our different ecosystems, like Copenhagen having one, Stockholm one. I think we should be the same. Yeah, it should be one hub. And and I must say, one of my biggest disappointments in life, because I come from southern parts of Sweden, and I uh I was like a kid when the Öresund's talk started to go and was like, the Öresund's region, like it's coming becoming the biggest as one city now, Copenhagen and Melbourne. Yeah, and I believed in that until like a few years back when I went to the you know echo tech in ecosystem of Malma, like there's no exchange, it's like no VCs from Malma going like that's like so easy to change. Is this the this post podcast a start for just can Malmö and Copenhagen be one?

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Yeah, at a minimum start speaking together.

SPEAKER_01 28:09

No, man, exactly. But I say exactly. So I was like, I think that we should also I think it's not I I mean this podcast is a great example. I think we have a great opportunity, but also like we should not uh exaggerate our differences. Like it's like we just talk about each other like we are like from different planets, but I think that we have more in common than we think, and I think that that's why we can also build together and inspire each other and and have more ecosystem just shared.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

I I I also love the friendly banner between uh the countries and the Norwegian because we we love each other, but we're also really great at uh at mocking each other.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Yeah, I love that. I mean, we uh do you make the same jokes about the Norwegians? Like uh no, maybe we should not say that. Right. No, but it's just for us. I mean, like Danes, there you're making a lot of jokes of us being just like super strict at home and then go here and uh drink very much and puke.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

I would never uh think like that about anyone from Sweden.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

No, it's it's because I was the one taking the boat when I was young and filled a bag with alcohol and went home.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

So I I figured out I think one of my first learnings uh in a business context in Sweden is that uh as a Dane, please uh put your irony and sarcasm back at home until you engage with anyone in business in a business context. Yeah, I've had my first year of challenges.

SPEAKER_01 29:28

Isn't that a Swedish thing too?

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Uh I think Swedes think like that.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Maybe I'm stepping so much. Every day I'm just I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 29:37

I I think, but I might be, I'm uh I yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Even you I saw that you got a little embarrassed when I I told a joke about Swedes. Like, no, we wouldn't ever say that. I'm like, that's a funny thing.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

We had an we we had an episode here where one of the former um uh guests he spoke about a quadrant of four from uh Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, and Finnish people, where it said, uh it's uh um polite and funny.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

All right.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

Where um you know Danes are funny but not polite, Norwegians are funny and polite, Swedes are polite but not funny, and and Finns are neither funny nor polite.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

So that's so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 30:15

That's crazy. It's probably probably something to do. Oh yeah, but it's just no, it's um that's but it but it is look, I think we are really close to each other, yeah. Which is and I I've been an advocate for the last I think couple of years for the region to come together just a bit more, and also back to your point earlier on instead of doing something that's just Stockholm focused or just Copenhagen focused, try to embrace each other a bit more. I think I think the the Nordic communities has been really great at branding stuff as Nordic. So there's a Nordic this and there's a Nordic that, but then when you look under the hood, it's a Danish thing, it's a Swedish thing. Which is such a um I think now I can see that there's starting to be a bit of movement from angels, angel investments coming from Stockholm to Copenhagen and the other right way around, and um conferences are now moving around also.

SPEAKER_01 31:07

So I think it's really good.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

You know, it's tech arena is coming down here, and you know, yeah, conferences are moving across. Brilliant Minds was in Copenhagen as well. So it does.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

I think that's a really good thing.

SPEAKER_02 31:16

Yeah, you're here as well, right?

SPEAKER_01 31:17

Yeah, and so we we are just here to invest, and we are looking at different uh we as long as it's very scalable, we're interested. Yeah and uh for us, it doesn't matter if you've built a company before, it's it can be an advantage, but it's not not nothing we demand. So and we work differently. And I was right now with everyone is like Gen C, everything should be Gen C, but I'm also just I want to say something, and it's uh I mean, not because you and me are getting old, I'm probably much older than you, but it's also one thing of knowing the workflows, knowing the processes that can be an advantage when you build companies. Yeah, so I like I I really love the Gen C with ambition, like the ambition and then maybe like the great naivety because it's also good to be a little naive and just it is really it works in your favor when you're building. Perfect. But also, like I you and when NASA is sending five guys up to space, they're in the 50s. Yeah, so we should it's just like we have to, there's a lot of amazing founders out there from all generations.

SPEAKER_02 32:15

I just read on a LinkedIn post from a friend of mine who who founded businesses in the past that he's going at it again. Yeah, he's starting from scratch, he's 52. Yeah, and he's owning up to it. So in his post, he's like, I'm 52 and I'm back in building.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Yeah, why not? I mean, and we're also living for like 30 years longer or something. 20, 30. I mean, we have so much more to give.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Now I sound so old. I've got so much more to give.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

I think we're probably the same age, to be honest. But look, so you're doing a bunch of investment now, right? Yeah. Don't do you do you ever miss being an operator, like a business operator? I I know you're operating your investment vehicle, but being down in the grunt work of building a when you're that too much you're a bad investor.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

I mean, uh it was a very path for us to to take our fingers out of the cookie jar, like if you if you know what I mean, yeah, because we came from it ourselves. So so what my most important task is to build a self-sufficient operational team. Uh, to your question, I I miss it, but I get it so much. It's just like I'm doing it in multiple. I I think we have 19 active, we've sold six companies, but we still have 19 active companies. So for me, it's like 19 companies at the same time just running. And when once I want to get deep, like last week I was like, you know, you can get as deep as you want. If if they trust you, you can also be there and and strategically at least it's like so. I think that I get so much out of building in my invest way of being investor. So, like, it's I I love it, and it's just like every morning when it just feels like the world is on fire, as you say, it's like I have the best uh job in the world because every founder that I work with has such a great and positive outlook of the future. So I think that I get so much back.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

I envy that with investors. I think that's a that's an awesome skill because I don't think I would ever be able to act as a great investor. You know, because I no, because I've I have so many thoughts and opinions about how to do stuff and when to do it. So maybe it's just something that you have to to your own point kind of squeeze out and learn.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

So it's it's a way of working that you just have to learn. But I I can see myself in the first years being too much uh into detail because I knew how it was.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

But uh do you ever have conflicts where founders are sitting in front of you and saying, we want to go left, we know it's left, and you know it's right, and by your experience, you know the path is right, but they're sticking to left.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

You like that that happens that happens all the time. But it being founder-friendly is actually thinking about the best for the company, and sometimes it's just like it's sometimes it's it is a little bit mean more long-term than they are. So uh maybe you will let them make their own decisions, but it's it's it's not supposed to be a very comfortable job every day. It's not it's not preventing to say important stuff, at least you want to have it said said so they can think about it. So I I mean I I think that it's also being founder-friendly, it's not doing exactly what the founder like agreeing to everything the founder says. It's being long-term and and helping them to be more long-term. Then I mean, building a company, as you know, it's like if it's uh if it works for uh every decision you should make, you should think like this: like if it works when we have a billionaire revenue and 2,000 employees, it's a good strategy. But but but and most of the decisions are not like early on in your journey, right? It just seems very easy to do a little bit different there and there and there, but be super simple and prioritize super hard with a customer focus works for almost all industries, right?

SPEAKER_02 35:58

There's a bunch of advocates now for the Nordics and Europe as a whole. There's uh um, you know, communities coming together, founders investing across. Uh, what should we do more of? Like, what like let's just accelerate things, but what should we do in your opinion?

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yeah, definitely cross-invest, cross-reach out, like everything, just see ourselves as one ecosystem, and also like now taking the staff pinna, what you say, like taking this role, like leading role in Europe. Because we have something great going on here, and uh and and also like uh together from the all the different Nordic countries, like expertise and experiences from a lot of different industries that we can also teach to the rest of Europe. So I think I want to see us more in the leading position of Europe now when we grow it, and I want us to do that together.

SPEAKER_02 36:43

What about the capital side of things? How do we unlock pension funds and more opportunities?

SPEAKER_01 36:47

That has to be political will. What's so weird is that they think that it's uh too much of a risk uh to put the pension funds here. Uh, but when you look at it over time, pension and savers like ourselves have actually lost of that not being there. So that's a myth. It has to be busted. And then, of course, the whole of European Union needs this pension system. It's only us and the and the Netherlands, I think, that has it. So we have to unlock much unlock more, much more private capital in in the European Union. One way of of doing it is the ISK that we all are now exporting. So, like different uh financial uh ways, uh pension funds, new ways of private, uh like small investors to invest in this.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

So I think that I love the the thought of uh the European Inc. What do you think?

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Yeah, yeah, I think that's an awesome initiative. Yeah, but I think many of those initiatives and also just the communities in the Nordics do a great job, and people and farmers are coming together. Yeah, uh, one thing I think we lack is political support. I think there's more political support and engagement in Sweden than in any other Nordic country. There is a total absence of political support in Denmark, and I think uh most likely Norway as well, where have you seen uh kind of the warehouse taxes and everyone fled Norway? Um, we just had an election in Denmark, no one spoke of the Nordics or of technology or of Denmark's position in uh only the legacy industries that we have. So I am somewhat jealous when I'm looking into uh the political engagement in Sweden.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

And that surprises me because it's just like so natural. I mean, if you're politician and your your your responsibilities are, of course, the economy, uh workforce, like every everything that you are responsible of is attached to growing companies. Yeah. So if you if you haven't embraced that, it's like we and I'm I don't know about Denmark, but we also need new kinds of politicians, politicians that have grown. Like it would have been awesome if a person like you could also be in the politics for a while and go out to to actually we had someone in Denmark who tried.

SPEAKER_02 38:50

He went in for like a year and a half and then he's like, not anymore.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

So uh No, because I think that I've heard that in Sweden they're tiring them out because they choose that career path like 20 years ago and they don't want to they don't want competition.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

But political by design.

SPEAKER_01 39:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so I think that's uh but but I I mean um it's I think that if you want politicians to talk about it, you have to drive public support. You can also work in other ways of like informing people on how important it is with uh you know entrepreneurship and building companies, like me helping people understand how because in Sweden I think that a l not too many people think they're part of what we call narings leave. But everyone is because of their jobs, or so it's like my mission in life is to make this folklit. How do you say that in English?

SPEAKER_02 39:42

Yeah, uh it's the same in Danish anyway, so I think everyone will understand.

SPEAKER_01 39:47

I think that that's a that's a really important uh thing for us to how can we make entrepreneurship folklit? Like everyone knows how to sell things, it's it's what it is, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:57

Would be cool if you had access to like private investments early on.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Yeah. Um one thing, do you have UVF in Denmark? Like um you can try to start a company in school.

SPEAKER_02 40:08

Uh not exactly the same, no.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Because that's a great thing. I think we have one million that has done that.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

And the the greatest predictor for someone starting a company is someone or that person has already done it.

SPEAKER_00 40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

So if you try it just like casually in school, that's like, and it's so cheap. It's like all municipalities in the Nordics should do this. Yeah, it's just a principle and uh like the boss of the municipality on uh communal road that make the decision. They send out a package, it's two teachers, it's a principal, and and that's it. And they can have it as a subject, they can start a real company, they're selling things with it like for real. And then they have tried it because it's so much easier than think people think.

SPEAKER_02 40:51

Entrepreneurship is not that big part of uh the Danish school system.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

But you can change that. Yeah, so I'm what I'm thinking. We can change that.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

So I'm taking notes, it's a tech community, it's uh re-engaging on investments, starting early on. Political support starting early in the school system. So when you and I chat the next time, we'll let's uh re-evaluate if uh if things have moved in a positive direction for both the Nordics and Europe. It was such a pleasure having you here. Great. Uh also in Denmark. I think uh I speak on behalf of the tech community saying we would like to see you more. And so some more Danish investments, hopefully.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Um tomorrow, if I can wish.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

We're looking forward, but really appreciate you coming over. So uh thank you.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Great chat, thank you.